Guild Launch News
Request for Input - Hard Mode on Raid Progression
We've been discussing the Ulduar hard modes here at Guild Launch and we're wondering how you all would like to see it represented on the Raid Progression. The way we handled this with Sartharion was to add Sartharion + 1 Drake, +2 Drakes, +3 Drakes. This works well for Sartharion because it's a single boss encounter.
In Ulduar this may work, but we'd like your input. Would a "Hard Mode" duplicate of each boss work? What would you like to see?
-Stephen
In Ulduar this may work, but we'd like your input. Would a "Hard Mode" duplicate of each boss work? What would you like to see?
-Stephen
I was thinking in the flyout window where the bosses are listed you could have the hard modes listed by achievement name under each boss indented a little, possibly greyed out until completed... so, it'd be clearer that they weren't additional bosses but different versions of the encounter.
The problem w/ this is there are 71 achievements for Ulduar on 10 man alone.
If your guild only has a few listed, I think this would be cool... but, when your guild starts getting lots of the hard modes completed it might be way too big. So, after a certain number for space concerns on the widget the +1, +2, etc. might have to be good enough. I just don't know what that threshold would be off of the top of my head, it'd have to be something that fit the various resolutions you guys make templates for.
But, on the info page, listing each achievement would probably be the best way to have the selections displayed.
That might require a separate page for 10 man Ulduar, 25 man Ulduar, and another page for the current WotLK raids.
The problem w/ this is there are 71 achievements for Ulduar on 10 man alone.
If your guild only has a few listed, I think this would be cool... but, when your guild starts getting lots of the hard modes completed it might be way too big. So, after a certain number for space concerns on the widget the +1, +2, etc. might have to be good enough. I just don't know what that threshold would be off of the top of my head, it'd have to be something that fit the various resolutions you guys make templates for.
But, on the info page, listing each achievement would probably be the best way to have the selections displayed.
That might require a separate page for 10 man Ulduar, 25 man Ulduar, and another page for the current WotLK raids.
I think I'd like to see a separate progression item for hard modes. We had 3 items there pre-3.1 (naxx, maly, OS), and we'll be removing them once Ulduar Hits. So having 3-4 progression items there I don't think would be too much. I'd like to see:
That would more predominantly display progression between hard and normal modes. In our case, we probably wouldn't even show the regular Ulduar 10 progression on our site, and instead would just have both 25-mans and the hard mode for 10 man.
- Ulduar 25 - mouseover shows all 13 bosses, but not yogg since he's hard mode only
Ulduar 25 (hard) - mouseover shows the bosses that have a hard mode only
Ulduar 10 - mouseover shows all 13 bosses, but not yogg since he's hard mode only
Ulduar 10 (hard) - mouseover shows the bosses that have a hard mode only
That would more predominantly display progression between hard and normal modes. In our case, we probably wouldn't even show the regular Ulduar 10 progression on our site, and instead would just have both 25-mans and the hard mode for 10 man.
Wyza wrote:
Sort of. You can track the Achievements in the achievement tracker already. If your users are uploading their profiles. Each hard mode has an achievement associated. As far as on the widget, it's still in limbo.
-Stephen
Has any progress been made on this subject?
Sort of. You can track the Achievements in the achievement tracker already. If your users are uploading their profiles. Each hard mode has an achievement associated. As far as on the widget, it's still in limbo.
-Stephen
My primary issue with the achievement widget, is it prominently displays the number of updated profiles that have gotten that achievement.
I don't know about the rest of the GL client base, but my guild members only remember to update their profiles sporadically, and even that is at my prodding, and only a few actually do it. So in order to get the achievements updated, I upload my own profile. This works but the whole "1 Completed" displayed on the widget is kinda weird looking.
I would honestly rather have that count not display at all, and maybe have a drill down to another page or a rollover or something else that lists out all the people who have updated that have completed it.
In terms of tracking progression, I would prefer if there was a way to display it on the progression widget, but the above posters are correct in that there are just *way* too many achievements to track, and they are often varying degrees of difficulty (e.g. Freya has 3 levels of 'hard mode' similar to Sarth x drakes).
I cannot think of a nice way to make that work in the progression widget, but I can tell you now that if we are forced to rely on users to update their profiles and then going in and clicking the track link to update achievements, it is going to be very frustrating for admins.
For example, I was not there for my guild's first Undying achievement, and had to hound people in the guild for days to update their profiles so I could display the achievement on the site. It would be REALLY nice if there were a way to enter these manually for the guild, or pull them from the armory by typing in a name or something of that nature.
It would also be cool if the track option were switched on automatically for the x most recent achievements added. So instead of having to go into achievements and untrack the older ones and track the newer ones, I could just set an option to show the 5 most recent (or some other number) and they would auto update as newer achievements are added to the site.
Just my $0.02
I don't know about the rest of the GL client base, but my guild members only remember to update their profiles sporadically, and even that is at my prodding, and only a few actually do it. So in order to get the achievements updated, I upload my own profile. This works but the whole "1 Completed" displayed on the widget is kinda weird looking.
I would honestly rather have that count not display at all, and maybe have a drill down to another page or a rollover or something else that lists out all the people who have updated that have completed it.
In terms of tracking progression, I would prefer if there was a way to display it on the progression widget, but the above posters are correct in that there are just *way* too many achievements to track, and they are often varying degrees of difficulty (e.g. Freya has 3 levels of 'hard mode' similar to Sarth x drakes).
I cannot think of a nice way to make that work in the progression widget, but I can tell you now that if we are forced to rely on users to update their profiles and then going in and clicking the track link to update achievements, it is going to be very frustrating for admins.
For example, I was not there for my guild's first Undying achievement, and had to hound people in the guild for days to update their profiles so I could display the achievement on the site. It would be REALLY nice if there were a way to enter these manually for the guild, or pull them from the armory by typing in a name or something of that nature.
It would also be cool if the track option were switched on automatically for the x most recent achievements added. So instead of having to go into achievements and untrack the older ones and track the newer ones, I could just set an option to show the 5 most recent (or some other number) and they would auto update as newer achievements are added to the site.
Just my $0.02
It porbably won't make it into the next release, but we'll be pulling achievement data from the Armory soon. Which will change the nature of the achievement system we have in place. The current system relying on the Mod import will still be available and will allow for on-demand imports, but the Armory import will let you get that bulk data in and get the data from those people who can't be bothered to upload a file.
-Stephen
-Stephen
I was just thinking about this; the purpose ultimately of hard modes is to beat '(Heroic) Glory of the Ulduar Raider' - there are some interim achievements but they are possibly less important. Or at least they are not as easily summarised as there are so many
It would be great to have "Ulduar - Meta achievement" progress widget listing just those hard modes that count towards (Heroic): GOTUR.
Would keep the progress widgets focussed without having to include every achievement possible and end up with something sprawling.
It would be great to have "Ulduar - Meta achievement" progress widget listing just those hard modes that count towards (Heroic): GOTUR.
Would keep the progress widgets focussed without having to include every achievement possible and end up with something sprawling.
The way I see it there are 3 kinds of Ulduar bosses in terms of hard modes: no hard mode, hard mode, and scalable hard modes.
No Hard Mode: Regular loot table only. Although these bosses may have speed kill or optional fight mechanics that make them more difficult, every kill will drop the same loots. Being an objective of the Glory of the (Heroic) Ulduar Raider achievement doesn't qualify as a hard mode in terms of progression. Ignis the Furnace Master, Razorscale, Kologarn, Auriaya, Algalon the Observer.
Hard Mode: Regular and hard mode loot tables, only 1 hard mode variation. XT-002 Deconstructor (kill exposed Heart of the Deconstructor), Assembly of Iron (kill Steelbreaker last), Hodir (speed kill), Mimiron (push the hard mode button on the wall), Thorim (speed run through tunnel gauntlet), General Vezax (no saronite clouds, killing Saronite Animus).
Scalable Hard Mode: Regular and hard mode loot tables, multiple hard mode variations with progressive difficulty. These hard modes are enabled by leaving alive/destroying 1 or more mobs/structures prior to engaging the boss. For each additional unit left alive/killed, the fight becomes more and more difficult. Technically, hard mode is enabled by leaving alive/killing the first unit. But in many cases, hard mode loot won't drop except on the more difficult fight variations. Flame Leviathan (destroy 1-4 towers, hard mode loot on 4th tower), Freya (leave 1-3 elders alive, hard mode loot on 3rd elder), Yogg-Saron (aid from 3-0 keepers, hard mode loot on 1 keeper).
So for the Progression Widget... add a group for 25 man hard mode and another for 10 man hard mode. List the boss names just like the widget currently does, obviously excluding bosses with no hard mode. Scalable hard modes could have an indented list of fight variations immediately under the boss name. As each fight variation was completed it would be crossed off the indented list. After all variations have been defeated then that boss would be crossed out on the main list. Only after all variations were defeated should that boss be counted towards progression and the indented list be removed. For example (orange italics = crossed out):
10 Man (4/9)
Flame Leviathan +4
XT-002 Deconstructor
Assembly of Iron
Freya
- Freya +1
- Freya +2
- Freya +3
Hodir
Mimiron
Thorim
General Vezax
Yogg-Saron
- Yogg-Saron +3
- Yogg-Saron +2
- Yogg-Saron +1
- Yogg-Saron +0
No Hard Mode: Regular loot table only. Although these bosses may have speed kill or optional fight mechanics that make them more difficult, every kill will drop the same loots. Being an objective of the Glory of the (Heroic) Ulduar Raider achievement doesn't qualify as a hard mode in terms of progression. Ignis the Furnace Master, Razorscale, Kologarn, Auriaya, Algalon the Observer.
Hard Mode: Regular and hard mode loot tables, only 1 hard mode variation. XT-002 Deconstructor (kill exposed Heart of the Deconstructor), Assembly of Iron (kill Steelbreaker last), Hodir (speed kill), Mimiron (push the hard mode button on the wall), Thorim (speed run through tunnel gauntlet), General Vezax (no saronite clouds, killing Saronite Animus).
Scalable Hard Mode: Regular and hard mode loot tables, multiple hard mode variations with progressive difficulty. These hard modes are enabled by leaving alive/destroying 1 or more mobs/structures prior to engaging the boss. For each additional unit left alive/killed, the fight becomes more and more difficult. Technically, hard mode is enabled by leaving alive/killing the first unit. But in many cases, hard mode loot won't drop except on the more difficult fight variations. Flame Leviathan (destroy 1-4 towers, hard mode loot on 4th tower), Freya (leave 1-3 elders alive, hard mode loot on 3rd elder), Yogg-Saron (aid from 3-0 keepers, hard mode loot on 1 keeper).
So for the Progression Widget... add a group for 25 man hard mode and another for 10 man hard mode. List the boss names just like the widget currently does, obviously excluding bosses with no hard mode. Scalable hard modes could have an indented list of fight variations immediately under the boss name. As each fight variation was completed it would be crossed off the indented list. After all variations have been defeated then that boss would be crossed out on the main list. Only after all variations were defeated should that boss be counted towards progression and the indented list be removed. For example (orange italics = crossed out):
10 Man (4/9)
Flame Leviathan +4
XT-002 Deconstructor
Assembly of Iron
Freya
- Freya +1
- Freya +2
- Freya +3
Hodir
Mimiron
Thorim
General Vezax
Yogg-Saron
- Yogg-Saron +3
- Yogg-Saron +2
- Yogg-Saron +1
- Yogg-Saron +0
I was looking before posting to ask about this same thing, but Aer apparently already stole the words out of my mouth . I love the format he proposed and it's what I was going to recommend/request.
Btw Stephen, do you have an ETA/Status update of guildlaunch pulling achievement info from armory? Because I also agree with LighpeltBWR that it really is like pulling teeth trying to get guildies to update a profiler profile, and I won't push too hard, as I'm already happy enough that we have an entire guild using the on-site signup system, something that alll too often never works out quite perfectly...
Btw Stephen, do you have an ETA/Status update of guildlaunch pulling achievement info from armory? Because I also agree with LighpeltBWR that it really is like pulling teeth trying to get guildies to update a profiler profile, and I won't push too hard, as I'm already happy enough that we have an entire guild using the on-site signup system, something that alll too often never works out quite perfectly...
Aer's approach is what we did (more or less) for Crusaders' coliseum and we should see the same thing soon for Ulduar and we'll take a similar approach for future instances.
Regarding pulling achievements from the Armory I'm working on updates to this functionality now and hope to include it in those changes. Especially if some things go more quickly than I expect, but I don't have an ETA right now because at this time I'm considering it functionality that can slip for other higher priority items.
-Stephen
Regarding pulling achievements from the Armory I'm working on updates to this functionality now and hope to include it in those changes. Especially if some things go more quickly than I expect, but I don't have an ETA right now because at this time I'm considering it functionality that can slip for other higher priority items.
-Stephen